00:00:02: And now I switch to English, since our last programme point is our talk.

00:00:09: That's traditionally Duri Bonin who was doing the talk and he did it in German but since our guest is English speaking... ...it will be in English!

00:00:20: So thank you so much for being here.

00:00:22: We cannot come up on the floor yet.

00:00:27: we'll start our talk.

00:00:30: Well, thank you.

00:00:31: It's a pleasure to be here and hopefully we can have an interesting conversation with some thoughts on very fascinating topics

00:00:37: taking

00:00:38: place in Switzerland today.

00:00:39: Exactly!

00:00:39: I mean it is such really a pleasure that you've made the way all from Geneva

00:00:44: to Zurich

00:00:45: so... We don't take that for granted at all And were gonna discuss topic which is quite moving tech society right now.

00:00:58: probably there's a lot of the audience who already know who you are.

00:01:03: But as I mentioned, Andy is founder and CEO of Proton which is tech company.

00:01:09: we're going to talk more about what you do in this company but first of all, Andy has PhD in physics so we've been blown away by that at Harvard and worked with CERN in Geneva.

00:01:28: Then you have switched sides, so to speak.

00:01:31: And then you become a founder and CEO of the tech company.

00:01:34: So how did that happen?

00:01:36: First off all what made you switch from science To corporation world.

00:01:43: Well it was really an accident.

00:01:44: It's not part of plan.

00:01:45: I think many interesting things in life happened on accidents.

00:01:48: Even going to CERN actually was an accident from Taiwan originally, and in Taiwanese families they always say be a doctor or lawyer like all of you.

00:02:00: Or business person right?

00:02:01: So when I got my PhD the comment was oh he became a doctor but wrong type of doctor!

00:02:06: Now going into the academic path...I couldn't actually become another doctor because i don't seek help this very well.

00:02:15: And so if wanted physics on accident it's black-and-white.

00:02:18: It's very, very simple.

00:02:20: Now a legal topic as you know is not so black and white which why we're having debate tonight right?

00:02:25: But this how I got into physics And what i was doing in physics.

00:02:28: CERN is.

00:02:30: Well it isn't Geneva Which from Zurich seems like almost separate country but I swear We are the same country.

00:02:37: But CERRN kind of place where its international A lot people don't notice.

00:02:43: Worldwide Web which is the protocol that underpins internet was created at CERN.

00:02:48: So, CERND has always had a question of tech information transfer information and society.

00:02:53: this very fundamental to what scientists do in two thousand thirteen.

00:02:58: everybody remembers well back those days uh... but they're pretty famous Snowden case where I was noted came out cell.

00:03:05: here's whats going on with government surveillance and of course the world will shock legal community across Europe as you know quite shocked by this.

00:03:12: But this is just maybe one piece of the puzzle.

00:03:15: What Snowden showed was what governments are doing, but the bigger surveillance that people don't really realize it's happening is actually on a corporate side.

00:03:23: So today I would argue if US wanted to save some money If Trump and Elon want doge to end They could shut down NSA.

00:03:33: You dont need anymore.

00:03:34: Why?

00:03:34: Because Google, Apple, Microsoft, Meta all these companies have way more information about you than NSA will ever.

00:03:42: I think it's true.

00:03:45: And that, I think is a very, very severe problem for democracy and how society will advance in the future.

00:03:53: Here in Europe—it wasn't so long ago especially let us say Central Europe —that people remember the story of what happened in East Germany.

00:04:00: In Taiwan we had this similar experience with our neighbor China also seeing closely what happens in Hong Kong.

00:04:07: So there are certain fundamental rights that I believe are very important to protect.

00:04:13: And in the digital era, they really come under threat.

00:04:15: so this is the motivation behind Proton.

00:04:18: The idea was...I think it's important.

00:04:21: people have internet services and we go online and then we have digitized our society but when you provide options So if want keep certain things private.

00:04:29: That still possible in a digital era Because my opinion democracy depends on that.

00:04:35: What do your offering at Proton?

00:04:39: Well, we started with the email service and that's one maybe all of you know particularly some prosecutors here may not know about it.

00:04:46: We can discuss this later or for some beers but then off course when to provide other services on top.

00:04:52: so there is a calendar product file storage product password management even private AI.

00:04:59: as a lawyer if your using AI using your confidential information and chat GPT.

00:05:04: It's probably not the best idea, right?

00:05:05: So you can try using LUMO it a bit more private then do analysis there.

00:05:10: And so its whole ecosystem of products in concept is very simple.

00:05:14: Today we have Google Workspace Microsoft Three Sixty-Five Office Ecosystem as dominant ecosystems.

00:05:20: I think those are built on an American model which has certain, you know the NSA came from America wasn't really a mistake right?

00:05:31: It was not an accident.

00:05:32: They have a certain mindset towards privacy and rights.

00:05:35: that maybe is not the best And I think Europe The uniqueness of Europe Is.

00:05:40: we've got different set values Grounded in human rights A strong tradition of privacy and security.

00:05:46: Privacy and security.

00:05:46: what it represents is trust And the foundation of this Swiss economy in actually, the last hundred years is built on that concept of trust.

00:05:54: So I think it's a very strong value that Europe has ability to put into technology services and we can provide an alternative to what Americans and the Chinese are offering.

00:06:04: That i think in digital era where distrusts increasing will find bigger audience.

00:06:09: so its economic opportunity but also moral imperative because thats right thing.

00:06:17: you do So to speak threatened by legislation changes, you all might have heard as well that the government is trying to amend the FÜPF which on post and telecommunication surveillance, actually this ordinance is even translated to my surprise in English.

00:06:40: And this legislation change has or this intended change caused a bit of a stir and you have been very prominent critic off these changes that are not happening yet but we're discussing it.

00:06:58: so what's the issue for Proton when this legislation change would come into force.

00:07:06: Well, it's a I don't know how deep you want to get right wicked.

00:07:10: It's very long document.

00:07:11: if anybody reads that i don't recommend it but its you read it as A really long document.

00:07:14: maybe have AI You know.

00:07:15: summarize it Actually?

00:07:17: I gave a good interview in the NZZ That you can read that covers a bit more in depth Right But to hit on a few points there are Really probably I will say two main red lines that the proposed revision is crossing, not just for Proton but actually for entire tech industry we represent.

00:07:34: You have to keep in mind that Proton isn't only a Swiss tech company focusing on the idea of digital trust.

00:07:40: There's an entire sector in Roman D called Trust Valley with three hundred companies.

00:07:45: There are tens of thousands people employed in this sector, it is actually a very future proof growth sector for Switzerland and its one the fastest growing sector in our tech industry.

00:07:56: They view it, they hear about Proton because we're more known and allowed.

00:08:02: But actually I'm speaking on behalf of hundreds of companies And this is also why in the public consultation that happened last year The results were uniformly negative right?

00:08:11: All industry was opposed.

00:08:13: Most parties oppose as well.

00:08:14: Actually to my surprise even Federal Councilor Yann's party Socialists also opposed.

00:08:20: I think that was the right thing to do, but it shows kind of the extent of opposition.

00:08:25: So what are two reliance that this ordinance revision process?

00:08:29: The first one is why we call indiscriminate retention a metadata and so with the proposal there's any meta data within service like proton has been retained for six months and handed over to you know law enforcement authorities actually when their is criminal case on our system.

00:08:49: I have no problem actually with helping police and prosecutors on cases like this.

00:08:53: But the distinction is, I don't believe that we should put under surveillance every citizen by default.

00:08:59: You need to have some sort of suspicion Some sort justifiable cause.

00:09:03: do it.

00:09:03: It cannot be blanket surveillance all over society.

00:09:06: So this really first red line indiscriminate metadata retention crosses.

00:09:12: The second one Is much more practical security implication.

00:09:17: The proposal is also to allow the Postal and Telecommunications Reduance Service, to automatically access that data through product infrastructure.

00:09:27: So in the technical community I hope...I think there's some engineers here.

00:09:30: I met during a coffee.

00:09:32: this called a backdoor right?

00:09:34: This basically government can directly query into your infrastructure And issue with.

00:09:40: it was no such thing as a back door but only lets good guys in Government even though they do their best does get hacked and it's happened a few times here in Switzerland.

00:09:49: So can you imagine the situation where I go to my customer, maybe actually was in Brussels earlier this week talking with one European Commission which is an actual product of customers?

00:09:58: Imagine that they say yes i guarantee your security but the security as good at the security of the Swiss government.

00:10:06: not very good sales pitch especially when there are long record breaches have happened.

00:10:11: so think about also for our society as whole if the government gets breach And every single Swiss tech company gets breached as a result.

00:10:20: That is the cyber security disaster.

00:10:21: So these are really two red lines among other things that you know, really cause The whole industry to oppose it.

00:10:27: It's a security argument but its also just principles arguments.

00:10:31: Do we believe people are guilty until proven innocent or is there another way around?

00:10:38: about the risks of this regulation having some kind of a backdoor.

00:10:43: What consequences would new ordinance imply for you?

00:10:50: The answer to that article was quite clear, so Proton is already moving away servers!

00:10:58: Is there going to be sort-of strategy?

00:11:01: or how are we dealing with uncertainty not knowing what change of ordnance will be?

00:11:08: Well, I would say for business uncertainty is the killer.

00:11:11: It's very hard to plan investments without knowing.

00:11:15: and The other thing that i was reminded about in my trip to Brussels this week Is we also cannot consider switzerland as an island?

00:11:22: Uh...I know oftentimes We think that were special where unique.

00:11:25: And we uh..and we are!

00:11:26: This is a very special and unique place.

00:11:28: and- and this why Im here and I want to stay Here right But we work In a competitive global economy.

00:11:40: People often say, well this regulation for telco it applies to Swisscom.

00:11:46: So why can't it apply to a company like Proton?

00:11:49: This is the argument that actually sometimes made in burn.

00:11:52: right but That is really ignoring the economic reality of A company like proton and a company Like Swisscom.

00:11:59: And then so my change an investment strategy becomes very clear once I outline maybe The comparative you know economic issue.

00:12:06: Swisscom today actually that is a formerly government owned company That it's operating in a quasi monopoly now.

00:12:16: There's maybe three or four main players, but these players have A hundred percent of their business almost entirely based on Switzerland and Very little meaningful competition coming from abroad.

00:12:28: So that's that market.

00:12:30: But what does the market better come like proton?

00:12:33: It operates in well number one.

00:12:35: Our tech businesses today are export-driven business.

00:12:39: My revenue is ninety eight percent export, so this is the classical Swiss thing.

00:12:44: We're an exporting country and in Tech that it's also true.

00:12:48: So number one of them market is different.

00:12:49: I'm ninety eight per cent.

00:12:50: you know abroad they're ninety eight Percent in his internal market already.

00:12:54: You cannot compare their markets.

00:12:56: But The second Thing Is Who is my biggest competitor here In Switzerland?

00:13:02: who actually?

00:13:03: maybe just Interesting question, right?

00:13:05: Who is the biggest email provider in Switzerland.

00:13:08: It's not us it has been Swisscom its Google and then Microsoft.

00:13:14: So my competition In fact comes from abroad whereas Swisscoms competition Is here.

00:13:19: so it's a level playing field as Swisscom salt around And everybody is having The same you know obligations.

00:13:25: but am I situation?

00:13:27: i Am competing ninety eight percent abroad for they don't have these regulations.

00:13:31: And even for the two percent who are here in Switzerland, I'm competing against much bigger players.

00:13:36: In here don't have this regulation.

00:13:38: So what's so?

00:13:39: This is if from legal terms Is it kind of an absurd situation where we're putting a place in ordinance that is going to apply obligations To us Swiss company to make it less competitive and its home market against foreign companies.

00:13:53: It doesn't make any sense right and this is why there's very strong opposition And in a situation of coming like Proton, but not just us.

00:14:00: But the entire tech industry.

00:14:02: when placed into that situation what is the choice you have?

00:14:06: Actually the obvious thing to do it's say well if Google because they're not Swiss hit by this regulation.

00:14:14: maybe I should also be not Swiss and don't have this problem as well.

00:14:18: This logical obvious conclusion any business executive confronted with these problems will choose And this, in my opinion is bad for the country.

00:14:28: It's a disaster of other countries because it means our entire tech sector goes away and Tech Is the driver or mostly economic growth?

00:14:36: In you know That's the case on US for last two decades and that's going to be the case in Switzerland For The next Two Decades as well.

00:14:42: that's that's A serious problem and This is why we fight.

00:14:44: this is Why I think this is not just a legal issue Or surveillance issue or some obscure criminal law Issue but its a broader economic issue that impacts Our Entire Country.

00:14:56: So we're basically regulating away our tech industry?

00:15:00: Yes,

00:15:00: yes.

00:15:01: We are regulating way the future

00:15:02: All right.

00:15:03: so would that be also the consequence for proton you've mentioned in an interview on the answer to that interview.

00:15:11: Do you prepare for that scenario?

00:15:13: um...we

00:15:14: have no choice but to prepare.

00:15:17: You know, I cannot compete with the global tech giants that i'm competing against if I am forced to undermine The security and privacy of our customers in a way.

00:15:25: That does not let me compete.

00:15:26: There's really no choice Today, we have not moved people yet because I really don't want to do that.

00:15:32: This is the last straw and by the way it's a most important part.

00:15:35: this talent will grow for future generations.

00:15:40: so people are on move but infrastructure data centers servers these things are kind of outside in my opinion a bit of tragedy for Switzerland.

00:15:49: as we know AIS coming when you need to have an infrastructure the data center GPU clusters run AI Proton is investing around one billion Swiss francs into this area.

00:16:01: Everything that we're building today, it's being built abroad and This is sad.

00:16:08: Of course I understand democracy.

00:16:10: politics works at a certain speed And if you try to rush it then maybe thats not also good either.

00:16:16: so We have the respect of process.

00:16:18: But as lawyers You understand very well how long litigation takes.

00:16:24: but I give this story, it will take about probably three years to get the end of a story minimum.

00:16:33: And you know that for four years now is approximately when chat GPT first appeared.

00:16:42: so world and economy has changed entirely in period time where we are taking Switzerland just decide one ordinance And that's tough for business, unfortunately.

00:16:55: Yes also we are used to having these long proceedings and maybe it is a downfall of having the direct democracy and having this stability.

00:17:06: everything moves slowly which has been an advantage for us back in days but nowadays its probably becoming more of burden especially with fast developments.

00:17:19: You know, if I'm from an authority and look up a case then maybe the suspect is like oh yeah here's a proton male etc.

00:17:28: And they might think well this all very secretive.

00:17:33: Protonists are actually helping criminals you know?

00:17:35: They're hiding or helping them hide stuff there allowing their services to be used.

00:17:41: so of course we need more regulation.

00:17:44: make it transparent.

00:17:46: What would you answer to that?

00:17:49: Or how do you at Proton actually also fight against the use, let's say illegal use of your services.

00:17:59: Yes well this is a very important point and what I think it a lot times will miss in this debate is Proton as company has no incentive ever have criminal users on our system.

00:18:11: why Number one, we are free in a paid service.

00:18:16: And I can tell you the criminals and other ones who were sending their bank account information or credit cards to their names for my services they don't pay.

00:18:23: i dont make any money from the criminal's.

00:18:25: I think Federal Counselor Jans has this misconception.

00:18:28: just wanna put it out there...i dont' make anymore of these users very clearly.

00:18:33: number two its reputational problem.

00:18:37: Noble wants their company to be associated with criminal activities.

00:18:40: It's not in my interest or anybody is interested do that, so as a business we invest very heavily and trying to prevent anti-abuse and antifraud.

00:18:48: actually today at Proton it's around ten percent of our workforce working on anti abuse which are much higher percentage than you see at big tech companies.

00:18:56: And the data Which by the way comes from the federal government?

00:19:01: Also From The Transparency Reports Of Tech Companies shows how this approach Is Working.

00:19:05: If you take the number of, you know, criminal prosecution requests that we receive and divide it by a number of users.

00:19:12: You look at that ratio.

00:19:14: compared to that exact same ratio from Google which has information all public The proton ratio is five times lower.

00:19:21: That means we do a five-times better job than Google in addressing this issue.

00:19:27: Now let's say from the prosecutor perspective This isn't always obvious.

00:19:32: Why is it not always obvious?

00:19:34: Because they also deal, at least in the federal level with a request to Proton from abroad.

00:19:40: So of course you see like a lot of requests but its because there's hundred million users of Proton around the world.

00:19:46: They have never seen a tech company as Switzerland reaching that sort scale in terms number of users.

00:19:51: so of course numbers seem high.

00:19:52: But actually if your look Relative to our scale and also by the way if you look at Swiss common salt in these other companies We don't even make the top ten probably in Switzerland terms a total number of requests, right?

00:20:04: So I think part of that issue is exaggerated.

00:20:06: But I want to point out we take it very seriously.

00:20:09: We don' t think it's exaggerated.

00:20:10: We invest a lot of resources too You know hinder the ability to use our services for illegal purposes because it Is not in our financial interest It is not in your ethical interests inside our brand's interest And we're very strong with this point.

00:20:23: But the line that we want to draw is, you will only wanna do the spying.

00:20:28: If it's clear this person has under suspicion and gone through a process.

00:20:33: It cannot be done by default for every single user.

00:20:36: And in tech world I think its very important also draw an analogy of past.

00:20:45: In law this called precedence right?

00:20:47: This is really important legal concept.

00:20:49: So email is the digital version of The Post.

00:20:55: And back in The Post, those days before everything became Digital... even the idea opening up every single letter and storing every single metadata recording that in a permanent database.

00:21:09: this was unheard-of.

00:21:10: no one would consider it to be something you possibly do so.

00:21:14: if we did not do that why will we change this for The Digital World?

00:21:22: Well, the answer that some prosecutors might tell you is well.

00:21:25: That's because back then it wasn't practical.

00:21:28: We couldn't open all the letters we could we didn't have enough people to read everything.

00:21:31: now with AI and technology You can do it automatically but my answer to that Is just cuz you can do.

00:21:37: It doesn't mean that you should And this is a case where probably we should not take that no step.

00:21:43: So it's a bit of failed analogy, so to speak because It has different.

00:21:49: It's not based on On the legal argument or an ethical arguments more over practical one.

00:21:54: Yes

00:21:55: sometimes we are practical but mostly were not lawyers and unknown for being very practical.

00:22:00: So you've said you have a lot of people working?

00:22:04: For security and also checking whether or not you have criminal use of your services.

00:22:11: how do exactly do you have like people that are working when a request comes in?

00:22:17: or Do you also just look for clues?

00:22:20: Or how does it work?

00:22:21: yeah, well It's about.

00:22:24: You know the very common one.

00:22:26: That happens at proton In the past but less now because we become very good at was you know with a ransomware People who were doing ransomware would use proton as their contact email.

00:22:38: And and I was cuz It was a problem.

00:22:40: Actually, they used Gmail to use all the other email services.

00:22:43: and how do you disrupt that activity?

00:22:44: Well ransomware game actually if you think about it is also business And as a business If your email keeps going down what are you doing?

00:22:53: You switch providers.

00:22:54: So if we were very good at blocking their accounts proactively and, you know, walking them out.

00:23:00: They eventually say it's too hard to rub my business on Proton I'm gonna go to Jibo or somewhere else with this less security.

00:23:06: so actually that is a concrete example.

00:23:08: Now another interesting side of what i have here.

00:23:12: when we find these accounts We also sometimes Prosecutor and say well actually by the way We have all this stuff that we have found criminal activity on our platform.

00:23:24: Does this you know interest to right?

00:23:26: And they say oh, we're actually Unless a victim files complaint.

00:23:30: We're not dealing with it Right.

00:23:32: so I think again an example of basically saying I Think the issue today for law enforcement Actually is not lack of data.

00:23:42: The Issued.

00:23:43: my opinion is the ability to efficiently go through data that already exists and make the correct decisions.

00:23:50: if we Go, too look at some of it.

00:23:52: you know what?

00:23:52: We might call terrorism or violence cases.

00:23:55: i've happened in europe And also in switzerland.

00:23:59: The vast majority of these suspects even a guy.

00:24:01: That you know had an incident recently in Switzerland.

00:24:05: Vast majority them In fact are extremists who have been radicalized And they are known to the authorities.

00:24:14: So if you look at just that statistic, I don't think the fastest way to solve a problem is to inundate with the authorities by ten times more data actually than might even be counterproductive as well.

00:24:24: so this something we need.

00:24:27: With

00:24:29: your experience also in the tech area and maybe cybercrime that you encounter, how would be your approach to improve the fight against cybercrimes more so than just trying change legislation opening up possibilities for prosecutors?

00:24:52: For legislation... We also need some legislation, so I'm not arguing that we have no legislating as well.

00:24:58: But it's about balance and it is about the balance between what we consider to be fundamental human rights or what we need for prosecutors to do their job correctly?

00:25:05: And I think if a prosecutor does his very important job in society right... So its getting the right balance!

00:25:11: Uh..I do you think If i look at all of my counter parts that were worked with in the prosecution services ,in police example The level of tech literacy is still not very high.

00:25:27: And I don't know what's the answer to that, right?

00:25:32: Maybe some judges should go back to school and learn these topics.

00:25:35: perhaps if i can make a suggestion or both suggestions but also think it will change with time.

00:25:42: when you look at younger prosecutors young lawyers in the tech space even younger judges awareness increases over time.

00:25:51: Society as a whole has moved very quickly.

00:25:53: Technology moves very quickly, there was always bit of lag and today in prosecution we're sort-of at the you know let's say Very awkward moment where technology has moved on.

00:26:04: but our processes are procedures or knowledge I don't how have not yet caught up And i think this solution is time.

00:26:10: it's gonna need to be There and We Of course all do Our best To communicate to educate to explain?

00:26:18: In This fight I Think The Prosecutors should view the private sector not as an adversary, but actually a partner.

00:26:25: Because fundamentally at very basic level there is shared interest here to reduce crime on our platform and to reduce crimes that society sees And even if you know the judge or prosecutor doesn't understand the tech well.

00:26:40: There are people in their private sector who understands it really well.

00:26:43: they want help And this is the public-private partnership that used to be the norm in Switzerland, but I think has disappeared recently.

00:26:52: For now it's just a government and the regulator trying to dictate do this or do that?

00:26:56: But you can get into much better outcome if instead of fighting each other we work together.

00:27:02: A very obvious example Let us say they succeed In this current revision of the ordinance.

00:27:10: You manage Proton and all companies like us out of the country And maybe let we go to Germany.

00:27:17: Maybe something goes in US.

00:27:18: who knows right?

00:27:20: Do you think the prosecutors in Switzerland will have a better situation if they're now forced to send All their requests abroad where there probably gonna get ignored by that by the Americans versus You know working for the partner-like proton, but actually wants help with this situation But within certain human rights frameworks?

00:27:38: I don't think it's actually better.

00:27:39: so Conversely, we're in a very ironic situation where if they actually succeed They put themselves Actually in the worst position and I don't think they realize this.

00:27:49: so This is something.

00:27:50: I hope you think about it And hopefully find a solution to you know have for them stay here in Switzerland?

00:27:57: As I said were very willing work together because there was a common interest here.

00:28:02: well will hope and see, let's say like that.

00:28:05: We don't know how this whole revision is going to turn out but you mentioned an interesting point.

00:28:11: to conclude these very interesting talk we should talk together.

00:28:16: so this actually what the conference also for.

00:28:19: a lot of different people from different backgrounds either prosecution courts lawyers techies try to understand each other side more.

00:28:30: So on this note, thank you so much!

00:28:33: Time has already run out.

00:28:34: unfortunately we could probably discuss about these issues for hours.

00:28:39: Thank you very much for being willing to talk with us and bring your opinion together to the table.

00:28:48: It's been really interesting.

00:28:50: I'm sure that we can continue our discussion at the APRO and over some drinks afters.

00:28:57: Thank

00:29:00: you for having me.

00:29:01: It's a pleasure to speak with all of you and I hope they have the conversation going so we can get constructive dialogue, thankyou very much!

00:29:22: You can find more episodes and my books on my homepage at www.duri-bonin.ch.

00:29:40: Thanks for watching, see you soon!